40k Daemons: How many Hounds are too many?

By now, all Daemon players are mostly aware that Flesh Hounds are one of, if not the best unit in our codex. But the question still remains of "How many Flesh Hounds is too many to have in a unit?"

The goals here are pretty simple.
1. Make it to the Assault phase with minimal losses
2. Successfully make the assault and destroy roughly over half of the unit you are assaulting.
3. Destroy the rest of the unit during your opponents assault phase, then consolidate towards their next target.
4. Rinse and repeat during your turn.

For the purposes of this math-hammer, we will be assuming that we will be facing a unit of 10 Space Marines, behind a defense line. (as the majority of things we will be assaulting will most likely be in cover of some sort)

Due to the lack of assault grenades, the flesh hounds will normally be at Initiative 1
(I'm going worst case scenario here, as attacking important units that are not in cover is of course a much better idea)

We will also be assuming that the Grimore on the Hounds was successful.
(Many People are still on the fence about whether the Grimore is needed or not, and with the number of Battle Reports I've read/watched, I would highly recommend one.)

On average, a unit of 10 Space Marines will kill between 2 and 5 hounds before they assault in, depending on rapid fire range.

20 Hounds vs 10 Space Marines
In close combat, 10 Space Marines will cause roughly .4 wounds to the hounds.
the Hounds will kill roughly 8.889. So almost the entire unit.

15 Hounds vs 10 Space Marines
In close combat, the Space Marines still only cause .4 wounds, so nothing significant.
The Hounds will kill around 6.667 marines on the charge, and then 3.334 in the next assault phase due to the loss of furious charge.

So as of right now, the unit of 20 looks to be the best option as 20 will start in the unit, between 18-15 will make the charge, and we're successful.

But here's where things get tricky because a lot of people also chose to run a Khorne Herald on a Juggernaut with the unit of hounds, to add in the AP2 weapon, myself included. Although I enjoy the Axe of Khorne and being able to Challenge an IC if needed and instant death him, but that's for a different article...

For arguments sake, lets stick with a base Herald on a Juggernaut with a Lesser Reward for the AP2 Weapon, and not worry about the locus or anything else yet.

His Hammer of Wrath hits are 50/50 against Space Marines (He's Cavalry, so don't forget he has these) wounding on a 3+, so lets leave that out for now as it's not reliable. After the first round of assault, he will be killing around 2.77 models.

Now if we add those two numbers together, a unit of 15 hounds and the herald, on the charge, will kill 9.445 models on the charge, which is extremely close to what we are trying to achieve, but one good round of dice rolling give or take and your left out in the open for your opponents, who have now just witnessed what your hounds are capable of, to unload everything they've got into them, which is what we don't want.

Now more math!
20 Hounds plus a Herald: We take roughly 4-10 wounds from shooting, putting us at around 17 hounds and a herald on the charge, which in my opinion is too many.

15 Hounds plus a Herald: We take the same 4-10 wounds from shooting, puts us at on average 12-13 hounds and a Herald on the charge, which is almost perfect, but I would like one more hound possibly.

10 Hounds plus a Herald: Now things are starting to get scary, as we could technically be at almost half the size of our initial size and we start to lose the cost benefits of the Grimore, and depending on what joins the assault we start to run further risks such as not putting out enough wounds to win combat, which would force Instability test, and being small enough to be wiped out completely by a vindicator or something similar.

I currently am running my units at either 15 or 16 hounds depending on points available, and it seems to giving me the results I am hoping for. At this point I think the locus could be over kill.

As always, more testing is always needed.

40K Battle Report: Daemons Vs Tau

So last night I was finally able to play my first game with my Daemons in 6th.

Yes I know it has been a long time coming, but with night classes, a new job and a new dog, time has been hard to find. Amazingly, in my first game I was paired up with a friend of ours by the name of SeeJay who was trying out a new Tau list as well. Needless to say, ours wasn't the fastest game of all time...

Deployment: Vanguard Strike

Game: The Scouring

I rolled to deploy and go first, but elected to pass to SeeJay instead.

Lists: 

Fateweaver

Great Unclean One

Herald of Khorne on a Juggernaut, with Locus of Wrath and an Axe of Khorne

15 Plaguebearers

10 Daemonettes with Alluress upgrade

10 Pink Horrors

20 Flesh Hounds

Prince (Red) Tzeentch, Armor, Wings, Grimore, Psyker (3)

Prince (Grey) Tzeentch, Armor, Wings, Portaglyph, Psyker (3)

I don't remember everything SeeJay had but I think it was close to this

Darkstrider

Cadre Fireblade

5 units of  10 Firewarriors

3 units of  10 Pathfinders with pulse rifles

2 units of 3 Crisis Suits with SMS galore

2 Hammerhead Gunshipsm one with Longstrike

1 Sky Ray Gunship

1 Razorshark Strikefighter

Aegis Defense line with a Quad Cannon.

All his vehicles had disruption pods, and i think he had something like 20-25 marker lights.

Then I had to roll for my psychic powers, and this is where things got interesting.

Fateweaver: 

Shriek, Warp Speed, Prescience, Fire Shield

Nothing to brag about here, but nothing really bad either

Great Unclean One:

Iron Arm, Life Leech, Haemorrhage ....and Dark Blessing for his Greater Reward (re-rolls ++ saves)

I think the term here would be "Yahtzee!"

Daemon Prince (Red):

Endurance, Iron Arm, Warp Speed

It doesn't get much better than that.

Daemon Prince (Grey):

Iron Arm, Endurance, Life Leech

It was at this point that the happy dance was started.

Horrors rolled Firestorm, but took Flickering Fire instead.

SeeJay castled up in the back of his corner, with everything. He had just mobs of firewarriors behind his defense line with the Fireblade on the quadcannon. He put 2 units of firewarriors in the woods toward the middle of his side of the board, and a unit of pathfinders in the middle of them with darkstrider. 2 Units of suits on either side of the defense line and a unit of path finders in the ruin in the far corner. Flyer in reserve.

I put the 15 Plague bearers in the woods on my side of the board (No idea why, bad move in retrospect, but it wouldn't matter in the end) The pink horrors just in front of them behind cover, with one exposed for flickering fire. Hounds as close to the line as I could get them. Daemonettes on the right side, behind cover to steal the other objective in the woods. I elected to start Fateweaver and both princes on the board in glide mode, due to the amount of shooting he had, and the fact that Tau can knock them out of the sky with marker lights (Yes it's true, and ridiculous in my opinion, check the Tau FAQ) Great Unclean one in reserves. 

Hounds make scout move up towards him.

Tau turn 1

Basically everything he had shot my hounds. Everything. So many marker lights, and so many shots. 

But amazingly, I only managed to lose a few hounds, I think maybe 2 or 3 here. Suits move some, fire some shots off, and jump back.

Daemons Turn 1

All prince powers go off, and 5's and 6's are everywhere for Iron Arm. Both are now S9, T8, Eternal Warrior, Feel No Pain, It Will Not Die, 3+, 5++ and rerolling 1's on ++ saves. I'm so excited I forget to roll for Warpspeed, luckily it really wouldn't have mattered this turn.

Grimore on Hounds is a success

Portaglyph lands DIRECTLY in front of his pathfinders in the ruin.

I move the hounds up to assault his firewarriors.

Fateweaver moves up into the ruins

I swoop both princes directly at him, as they are basically almost invincible at this points, to help get into CC faster. Plagebearers move up to mid field to hold objective. Daemonettes move up into better coverage so the suits cant wipe them out as fast.

I forget to roll on the WarpStorm table.

Horrors cast 2d6 fire on the suits on the far left side. 7 hits, and a few wounds. He loses one model , but makes his toughness test, they now have FnP(6+)

Fateweaver says go big or go home, and casts 4d6 shots into a firewarriors unit, wiping almost the entire unit out. They fail the Toughness test and take 2 more wounds, only a few left. 

Hounds assault into the full unit of firewarriors successfully. 

So...much...overwatch. SeeJay was using a great method of this where the pathfinder shoot marker lights in over watch, so the better units are overwatching on 5's instead of 6's.

Thankfully the wounds I get are spaced out and a few of them only take a wound a piece. I think I may have lost 1-2 in this phase and taken around 5-6 wounds total.

The assault is a blood bath, and the whole unit is wiped out. 

I use the consolidate move, to move the models with 1 wound left to the back of the pack and the 2W models to the front. I stay in the woods for cover.

Tau Turn 2

Flyer does not come in.

He moves everything back from the hounds, and groups up a lot more to maximize his over-watch potential.

Darkstrider moves from the unit of pathfinders to a unit of firewarriors.

All of his firewarriors and pathfinders again shoot at my hounds, except for the unit of suits on the right, which manage to take out the portaglyph on a glancing shot! But at least they aren't shooting at my hounds or princes. So far I have lost about 7 of my 20 hounds.

Longstrike unloads on the Grey Prince and does nothing. Same with the other Hammerhead. 

The Sky Ray manages to take him down to 2 wounds however with missiles.

In his assault phase he jumps his suits back farther into cover.

Daemons Turn 2

Great Unclean One Deep strikes in, scatters 11" and goes into ongoing reserves.

Grimore Successful again

All Powers go off again on princes, this time 6's on both for Iron Arm and Warp Speed on the Red one. SeeJay doesn't look very happy.

Plaguebearers move up to hold midfield objective. Daemonettes move up farther into ruins toward objective on his side of the board instead. I did think because I knew that he was expecting me to go for the one on my side of the board in the woods. Fateweaver moves a bit to better cover. Princes glide into assault range. Horrors move to keep out of LoS of the 2 suits just off the left side of the picture.

I forget Warp Storm Table again.

Daemonettes run and are now into his deployment zone but in cover, should be able to charge them in next turn if the Great Unclean One doesn't scatter very far or mishap

Horrors Flickering fire again, and wipes out the suits on the left.

Fateweaver unloads another 4D6 into the unit of pathfinders and wipes out the unit on a failed Toughness test for a Victory Point. Grey Prince casts Life Leech on the unit of firewarriors with the Fireblade in it, and regains 2 wounds. 

Hounds Assault in and take out another unit of Pathfinders for another Victory point, but loose another few models, they consolidate back to hold the objective in the woods.

Red Prince assaults in, takes zero wounds to overwatch, and takes out darkstrider and the remaining firewarriors.

Grey Prince assaults in, and takes a wound to overwatch. He challenges the Fireblade who refuses. I decimate the unit, and only the fireblade and 2 firewarriors are left in it.

It was at this point that it was getting late and we decided to call the game. 

I held 3 objectives to his 1. I had First Blood, Line Breaker, killed 2 of his Fast Attack units, and was on the verge of killing his warlord next turn. We checked the points on the objectives and it was currently 14-2.

Lessons Learned:

If you're going to play Daemons and you aren't going Mono-Khorne, memorize the psychic powers.

15 Plaguebearers is too many to hold backfield objectives. 

I will most likely need an icon on the Daemonettes if I'm going to deep strike in the Great Unclean One.

Hounds are worth every point. 

The Locus of Wrath May be overkill, more testing needed.
There was never one single shot fired at my troops or Fateweaver, and even with all the focus on my hounds and Princes, neither one went down.

For the first time playing in a few months, it was fun to get back into the swing of things. And see that the timespent building this army from scratch was worth it. He didn't have any Broadsides or Riptides, so more testing will definitely be needed, but the list will surely be adjusted for next week.

Daemons 1-0! Undefeated!

40k Daemons: Multiple Big Threat List (MBT)

New theory for a list. I wanted to try to build around the concept of no weak units. No unit cannot be ignored, and I must say, that This will be the list I will be running in the future for tournaments where Dual Force Org charts are allowed. (Obviously will not be my DiceCon List) That will be soon to come...

HQ:

Fateweaver

Keeper of Secrets - Psyker (2), Greater Reward x2

Troops: 

10 Daemonettes

10 Daemonettes

10 Pink Horrors

Fast Attack: 

15 Flesh Hounds

Heavy: 

Slaanesh Daemon Prince - Flight, Armor, Psyker (3), Grimore

Slaanesh Daemon Prince - Flight, Armor, Psyker (3), Portaglyph

Slaanesh Daemon Prince - Flight, Armor, Psyker (3)

Only thing I'm missing so far is the Keeper of secrets and another pack of hounds, but I'm really looking forward to testing out this list. Idea is to keep the 2nd unit of hounds in reserve and outflank them in. For Dawn of War deployment it could help to catch a unit trying to run, but for Hammer and Anvil or Vanguard strike, could be a game changer. Use Portaglyph to create more troops and hope for good placement.

Getting back into league games next Thursday so, should be posting up some Battle Reports and Screen shots soon!

40k Daemons: Breaking the bank with Flesh Hounds.

Flesh hounds are, in my opinion, the new "go to" unit for Daemons. I find that the best setup is 20 hounds, and a Khorne Herald with a power weapon and Grimore on a Juggernaut. The Loci is also an option depending on points. The problem is...Money. 5 Finecast flesh hounds are around $50. Plus the Herald is another $50. So, for the whole unit...your talking about $250+ tax....for one unit. Which in my opinion is utterly ridiculous, and I could not justify spending that much money on just one unit.

So I've been trying to find other, cheaper units that are still competitive. But then yesterday, a revelation. The only rule for models in any tournament is that they have to be made by Games Workshop. It was at this point during a discussion with Capnmoe, in which he pointed out 2 possible alternatives from Warhammer Fantasy.

Both of these units are made by Games Workshop,  look closely related to Flesh Hounds, are 10 models in a units, and best of all, only cost $25 for 10! And they aren't made from Crapcast, they are plastic, which in my opinion is even better. For the Herald, I will simply get 1 blood crusher from eBay for around $15 and BOOM, unit completed!

So lets compare...

1st option: 20 Flesh hounds made from crapcast and a Herald on a Juggernaut for $250 + tax.

2nd Option: 20 Dire Wolves and 1 Blood Crusher for $65 + tax

In my Opinion its not even a question.
Plus I think the Dire wolves look more "Fleshy" anyways...